Grid 110 executive director Ezinne Price has helped launch founders who've raised $140 million. Her biggest advice? Think twice before ever raising venture capital at all.
Ezinne Iroanya-Price runs Grid110, the LA incubator that's helped founders raise $140 million in outside funding and win $3 million in grants, without taking a dollar of equity. She's also watching the funding math get worse, not better: Black women founders are getting less than 1% of total venture capital, and she's blunt about what that means for how people should be raising money right now.
Ezinne breaks down the two traits she actually screens for before backing a founder, consistency and the ability to explain a business past the elevator pitch, and why she tells most founders to think hard before chasing VC at all. She makes the case for partnerships, crowdfunding, and customer-funded raises as underused alternatives, and she's direct about the boundary-setting most first-time founders skip: saying no to free work and knowing when to stop being everyone's free advisor.
What You'll Learn:
Chapters:
(00:00) Introduction
(00:51) Quality of Life as a Business Goal
(01:51) From Nigeria to the Beauty Industry
(04:09) Sales & the Customer Journey
(05:20) The SKN Muse Origin Story
(07:16) Leaving Dior to Build Something of Her Own
(10:20) Kitchen Production & Early Testing
(13:19) The Pandemic Pivot & the Beyoncé Boost
(18:38) The Founder's Case for Healthy Selfishness
(19:53) What GRID 110 Does
(23:55) When Cash Flow Almost Killed the Company
(25:36) The Exit Decision
(28:55) Why Funding Got Harder
(32:26) Alternatives to VC Funding
(35:18) Partnerships, Pricing & Getting It Right
(37:37) The Most Common Founder Mistakes
(39:42) Why Customer Feedback Loops Win
(41:56) The Traits That Separate Founders Who Make It
(44:37) Finding the Right Coaches and Advisors
Ezinne's Highlights:
"I [look for] consistency. There's something about someone who's consistent, and consistency can come in different ways."
"Until you can stand ten toes on your own, [founders] should be a little selfish. There's a level of selfishness you have to have when you're building something."
"I'm not giving you a dollar if you don't believe in what you're building, and that's just the truth."
Connect:
Connect with Everett: http://linkedin.com/in/everettksands
Connect with Ezinne: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ezinne-iroanya-price-567a6515b/
Continue the conversation: smallbusinessunscripted.com
Learn more about Lendistry: lendistry.com
EZINNE: [00:00:00] Do not go into a VC meeting without being the expert, and I mean not just expert on your company, expert on your industry, expert on your numbers, expert on growth, everything. You want to be able to be the most knowledgeable person in the room because then you can make the best deal.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: I'm not giving you a dollar if you don't believe in what you're building, and that's just the truth.
EVERETT: That's Ezinne Price, executive director of Grid110. She went through the grind firsthand, and now she's running one of LA's top support programs for the next wave of founders. Today, she's bringing both sides of that experience to you. I'm Everett Sands, your host, and the CEO of Lendistry. This is Small Business Unscripted.
Let's get into it.
Such a pleasure to have you here.
EZINNE: Likewise. Likewise.
EVERETT: Okay. I ask all my professionals, entrepreneurs the same first question.
EZINNE: Okay.
EVERETT: Career, compensation, quality of life, what's kind of top of mind to you right now and why? [00:01:00]
EZINNE: Quality of life.
EVERETT: Okay.
EZINNE: And it's really because quality of life dictates everything.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: When you have a life of... I like to say my frequency is ease, wisdom, and softness. [Everett: Nice.] And if I'm able to maintain that type of frequency, I can achieve everything else.
EVERETT: So that's like your personal frequency. [unclear] If you're here, you're in your north star.
EZINNE: Yeah. So I'm here in my north star.
[Everett: That's good.] Calm mind is really, I think, one of my strengths, and just quality of life ensures I have calm mind. [Everett: Okay.] Yeah, yeah.
EVERETT: As an entrepreneur, I don't know that I have calm mind. I'm not even sure I know how to spell calm mind or what the definition would be, but sounds nice. [Ezinne: Yeah.] So tell us a little bit about yourself.
You know, corporate career, Lancôme. [Ezinne: Yeah.] Right? And then also a stop at Christian Dior.
EZINNE: Mm-hmm.
EVERETT: So just walk us through the you first.
EZINNE: Okay.
EVERETT: Then let's walk into corporate life, and we're gonna start talking about entrepreneurship a little bit later.
EZINNE: Okay. Me first, I actually migrated to this country at 16 by myself.
[Everett: Okay.] No mom, no dad. [Everett: Okay. Crazy.] Yeah. When I think about [00:02:00] it today, I'm like, "That was wild. I don't..."
EVERETT: And you migrated from?
EZINNE: Nigeria. [Everett: Okay.] Born and raised by a legion of women [Everett: Okay.] and woman aunties. And at 15, I graduated high school. And I remember my mom was like, "What do you wanna do?" And I said, "I'm ready to go to college."
And she's like, "Where do you wanna go?" I said, "America." And she's like, "Oh, okay."
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: "Okay."
EVERETT: Right around the corner.
EZINNE: "Okay, let's do it." And she helped me with my application. I got here, and I got into like four universities. I was always an overachiever. I still am till today. Even in college, my first internship was at Ackerman McQueen, which was a really hard internship to get, and I got it on my first try.
And everyone was like, "How? What? When? Who?" And I just went, "This is life." It just is. My proposal was just great. And since then, while I was in college, I started working. I remember, first time I got my work permit from the American government, I was like, "I'm gonna get a job in beauty."
Started at Dillard's when I was a sophomore. I'd say a couple — it was really two years. [00:03:00] Then someone at Lancôme, she loved the way I spoke to customers. My customer acquisition skill was out of this world. I had people that would come and shop just with me [Everett: Nice.] and would spend thousands of dollars on fragrances with me.
I actually, while I was in college, became a national stylist for Lancôme, so I was traveling with them. At my last year of college, I still had this internship with Ackerman McQueen. I had a part-time job, internship that turned into a part-time job at Ackerman McQueen. Was going to school full-time and was working as a national stylist for Lancôme.
EVERETT: Wow.
EZINNE: Went on to go full-time career at Lancôme. Worked there for a couple years, and my boss at the time, she had left and went to Dior. And when she went to Dior, naturally she's like, "Hey, you wanna go?"
EVERETT: Take one of my best.
EZINNE: I'm taking my best, and I became a business manager at Dior. And that was actually what brought me... I didn't really have — it were remote.
You know, you do a lot of traveling. One thing about Dior, no matter your position, they want you to learn everything. That's one of my greatest blessings. [00:04:00] Even if you're at the counter, they want you to go learn the formulation, everything, and I really, really grew in that position, and that's how I ended up in California.
Yeah.
EVERETT: So, I mean, one of the things that's interesting, I find a lot of entrepreneurs or those who have that skill set, sales is really important to them. [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] Am I correct in saying in these formidable years, this is what you're learning, so techniques and different things like that?
EZINNE: Yeah.
EVERETT: And from two great companies to learn it from.
EZINNE: Oh. Now I think about a customer's journey, I think from a different perspective than someone who might not have that background. [Everett: Sure.] Anything I'm doing, I'm thinking of when you first interact with a product or a service, how is your interaction from the moment you check out to the moment you use it to the moment it's empty [Everett: Yeah.] — the service is done. I cross-check every single stage, and it's one of the things that really sets my roadmap and strategy apart from everyone else. [Everett: Yeah.] That's, I think — a customer's experience, a customer's journey impacts everything: their retention, how much they're willing to spend.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: [00:05:00] Feedback.
Word of mouth is another marketing strategy, and really, those years as a young girl just kind of bopping around, didn't even know how blessed I was [Everett: Yeah.] really, really made that foundation for me. Yeah.
EVERETT: So then you go, and I might butcher the name, so correct me if I'm wrong. [Ezinne: Go ahead.] SKNMUSE?
EZINNE: Yes, you got it. SKNMUSE. Yeah.
EVERETT: Okay. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about that one.
EZINNE: So that was 2019. I remember I was sitting on a plane in another trip, work trip. We were going to, I believe, France or something, and I remember going through TSA, and they had thrown away my body butter mixture, right?
And this was like the hundredth time —
EVERETT: Okay.
EZINNE: — that this has happened to me. And this time, I remember being so precise with the size, and they still threw it away, the TSA agent, because it had no size label on it.
EVERETT: Okay.
EZINNE: And I remember I was sitting on the plane, I was so pissed. I was so pissed because I'm thinking to myself, "I'm going to another foreign country, and I'm going to have to figure out body care."
Now, body care, some people, they don't care. I [00:06:00] do. You know, it's important to me. I couldn't be going around France ashy. I just could not. And I'm thinking the hotel lotion is really never real lotion. I've been in spaces where I'm going to random back alleys to find shea butter [Everett: Yeah.] or just get my braids done.
I'm doing all these things, but I work in such a prestigious beauty company.
EVERETT: That's it. Yeah.
EZINNE: It's not... I was like, "No, this is not for me." [Everett: Yeah.] This is not in the frequency of ease. [Everett: Yeah.] And I said, "After this trip, I'm going to do something about it." You know, had the trip, and I was the only Black woman on the team at that point. [Everett: Mm.]
And so no one else could really understand why it was such a big deal for me, naturally so. If it doesn't affect you, it doesn't affect you. But I remember just saying, "Enough. I'm not going into another back alley to figure it out. I'm not going on IG to Google where I can get..." No.
EVERETT: I get it.
EZINNE: Enough. And I launched SKNMUSE, which was a luxury body care line that used African ingredients or was really inspired by African beauty. The way we formulated things, the way we spoke about things, we were [00:07:00] able to present body care in a way that you could rival a Dior if we had that type of capital.
Yeah. And we ended up expanding actually into the Middle East and Dubai and had partnerships with Tao Hospitality, American Express, and other people. Yeah.
EVERETT: Okay. So we got a lot done. So let's first just talk about — you're clearly, I mean, you were born with a gift, right? Your superpower is I'm willing to take leaps and I'm willing to take bounds.
I don't even know if you even think of it as risk. I don't even think that you have a risk button, so I'm not even gonna say that. But what makes you first say, "Look, I've got this amazing corporate job"? Because, you know, if someone carries you from Lancôme to Christian Dior, they've got plans for you.
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: Right? [Ezinne: Yeah.] They rise, you rise, and all those types of —
EZINNE: Yeah.
EVERETT: So the first question, and there's gonna be a bunch, but the first one is walking away from was probably a mentor —
EZINNE: Mm.
EVERETT: — right? Or someone who definitely has sponsored you.
EZINNE: Yeah.
EVERETT: What was that like?
EZINNE: It was hard and scary because at that [00:08:00] point in time, I felt like I had this safety net in her.
[Everett: Sure.] You know? I felt that there was somebody who was looking out for me, almost in a mentor figure, but in a big sis figure, and to go out on my own in such a way that I had never done, I was like, "Oh." But at the same time, my privilege, and I like to talk about my privilege, is my experience from a third world country is different from the average Nigerian.
My mom worked in aviation. She was the director of aviation for the country, Nigeria Civil Aviation, and so we —
EVERETT: She's pretty bright too, by the way.
EZINNE: She's pretty — oh, the bar is high, and she was the only woman for the longest time in that position. [Everett: Got it.] So we had the type of wealth that I could rely on if I needed to.
EVERETT: Understood.
EZINNE: So [Everett: That's helpful.] with that —
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: I'm like, at the end of the day, I'll never be homeless. Let's do it. Yeah. So I did it. So after going through the thought of, okay, what if, how come, what if not this and that, I till today, I [00:09:00] still come back to, well, you will always have a safety net, so why not?
I knew that SKNMUSE was gonna be just more than a hobby. I had to leave Dior. I left Dior early 2019, and I launched SKNMUSE by the end of 2019. In between that period, I was working. I learned how to code so I could design stages for concerts. [Everett: Interesting.] Yes. And I was doing that —
EVERETT: 'Cause that goes right with beauty.
EZINNE: I wanted something that would not distract me [Everett: Okay.] from my dream. So I was very careful not to go into something that I would love so much that I would put SKNMUSE on the back burner. That way I was able to fund SKNMUSE while — I literally learnt how to code. [Everett: Yeah.] And in between that, I got a part-time job at a gym.
EVERETT: Okay.
EZINNE: As a trainer. As a trainer, where I met my husband. And yeah, that's what I was doing. I was funding my... And every Saturday, every weekend, I would go to Sip & Sonder, which is no longer in Inglewood, but they're still open. I would go to Sip & Sonder with [00:10:00] my computer. We have a running joke at Sip & Sonder that that was where SKNMUSE was born.
I would have meetings there like it was my office. I would spread out, bring people. They knew that every weekend I was there. And that was how by the end of 2019, I launched SKNMUSE. But then, as you can imagine, 2020 happened, and the whole strategy that was built at Sip & Sonder, we had to pivot.
EVERETT: So first of all, did you make a product?
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: Okay.
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: So I don't know how much you follow us, but we had Melissa Butler when she was making, you know, her lipstick and different things like that.
EZINNE: Yeah.
EVERETT: Talk to me about this, because now this is great for me, 'cause this is my second time hearing somebody make a product. I'm not creative, by the way, so this is why it's so intriguing to me.
[Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] How did you know to just... where to start? Like, what ingredient? I mean, I don't know how to make —
EZINNE: I would like to give some credit to my mother and my grandma. My mother owned a beauty salon [Everett: Okay.] in Nigeria, so I've been around formulation of beauty products since I was a child. Our first product was a body butter, which I'd been making.
I had to tweak it for [00:11:00] mass production, naturally, but I knew what to put in. I knew where to go. I knew where to source from. 'Cause my mom lives in Nigeria, I was actually having things shipped.
EVERETT: Wow.
EZINNE: Yeah, so I'm being shipped.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: Not an enjoyable experience, but you do what you have to do.
So that was... And I was doing it in my kitchen in Inglewood.
EVERETT: Mm.
EZINNE: Yeah. In that —
EVERETT: Okay.
EZINNE: — that little two-bedroom, one-bathroom apartment turned into a whole facility that you couldn't even imagine. Everything was stripped away. It was really my bed. One room was kind of kept, but everything else was filled with products and the ingredients and equipments that I was shipping in, and that was where — on the outside, you might think I have a factory, but everything was being made in that little apartment by hand.
EVERETT: So how? What's your test group? Who are you leveraging to figure out? 'Cause obviously you feel [Ezinne: Yes.] how you feel about it.
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: But how do you know the customer will?
EZINNE: I actually tested [unclear] 100 Black women that summer, [00:12:00] 2019.
EVERETT: Wow.
EZINNE: I had a goal. It was 100. And I would go to church conferences because people don't know, the church ladies, they have money.
Even if you have a beauty product, take it to the church — they have money. The church ladies have money, and they're very opinionated. [Everett: Yes.] So I would test it out.
EVERETT: That's Madam C.J. Walker-ish.
EZINNE: Find —
EVERETT: This is very —
EZINNE: You know? Yeah. I would Google pop-ups. [Everett: Yeah.] And I would find pop-ups that I could afford to, you know, booth at.
I would take my products there and have people test it out, take their feedback. Their feedback actually helped me get my MVP product. I hated vanilla. The survey, 90% of people liked vanilla because it was familiar scent. I hate the smell. [Everett: Yeah.] Nothing about vanilla is something I enjoyed, but because the data said that vanilla was a top product that people would, you know, purchase, it — [Everett: Go with.] Right. I launched with a Madagascar vanilla scent, and for the longest time, it was our top product.
EVERETT: Wow.
EZINNE: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So that was 2019. I tested on 100, 100 women. Yes.
EVERETT: Wow. Mm-hmm. [00:13:00] Okay. Now we'll get to 2019, 2020. So walk us through. So 2019, product is launched, business is launched. You've surveyed, for lack of a better term, customer focus group, 100 women.
You have Madagascar vanilla [Ezinne: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.] which becomes the beginning of a very popular product. [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] Now walk us through 2020.
EZINNE: 2020 was a burden and a blessing. The 2020 comes, you have this idea. You're launching a beauty product. You want people to try. [Everett: Sure.] They smell. At that time, that's how people were selling beauty products.
[Everett: Yeah.] You know? And then the pandemic happens, when everything is shut down, and I remember thinking to myself, "Oh, whoa. Okay. What am I gonna do now?" I had a call with one of my girlfriends, and she says, "Just keep going. Don't... Just keep going. Whatever you can do well, do well."
[Everett: Yeah.]
At the point, I didn't think I was a creative person.
My husband now — then he wasn't. I like to tell [00:14:00] women, "If there's a good man in your life, use him." He was a creative director, like a genius when it came to visuals. However. So I had a meeting with him. I said, "Hey, can you help me with my visuals in a way that storytelling can come through?"
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: And he said, "Sure."
And we started with the Instagram, really pushing visuals out there, storytelling through images, and — I don't think they had Reels at that point. I'm not sure, but, you know, putting little content out to build our customer fan base. [Everett: Yeah.] That was his, like, "This I can do well." [Everett: Yeah.] "Let me lean into that." So it was just more about building the customer base, getting the word out there, trying... I would DM magazines. [Everett: Yeah.] My first magazine feature was from a DM, and by the time we finished the program at Grid110, a month after, Beyoncé features my product from these visuals.
She noticed it. Zerina Akers, who was one of our lead stylists, saw a picture that we took in front of that apartment in Inglewood on a glass [00:15:00] mirror.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: It was such a striking image. I remember that day. I was like, "Can we just take a picture?" [Everett: Sure.] My goal was to put something out every day.
[Everett: Yeah.] And I remember that day not even wanting to be out in the sun, feeling frustrated, but I still did it.
EVERETT: And that was the day.
EZINNE: And that was the day Zerina noticed SKNMUSE, and she introduced Beyoncé to SKNMUSE. And as Beyoncé had the Black Parade Route during that Juneteenth, and our business was one of the very few beauty brands on there.
I remember sitting down in that apartment eating oxtails. Juneteenth is one of my best holidays. I got engaged Juneteenth, and I would always Black business shop on Juneteenth. So I went — this time I think I did restaurants. So I went, and I was on my bed. I'm sitting there. There's no air in this apartment.
There are boxes everywhere, and I just start getting orders. Ding, ding, ding, ding. And I'm thinking at this point, because we're being consistent, we have influencers, right, that are talking about us. People are online.
EVERETT: So you're trying to figure out [00:16:00] which one.
EZINNE: I'm thinking, which one? 'Cause I don't have influencer budget.
It just is getting insane at this point. Orders are coming in. Then my friend texts me with a screenshot of the Beyoncé feature, and I thought she was... I was like, "That's me. Don't do that." She's like —
EVERETT: Photoshopped.
EZINNE: Yeah. She's like, "No, you're on Beyoncé's — go check. Beyoncé just featured you." [Everett: Yeah.] And that was how I knew.
In two days, we made six months runway for me to go full time, in two days. [Everett: Wow.] And then Beyoncé had us up for one year, so you can imagine —
EVERETT: I can only imagine.
EZINNE: — the type of revenue. This is my first business.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: I just did Grid110, was my first accelerator. Thankfully, I believe opportunity met preparation.
EVERETT: Sure.
EZINNE: And because I had learnt all these new things and because I've always been a risk taker [Everett: Yeah.] I just started messaging my manufacturers and vendors, "Hey, Beyoncé featured us. We need you to move." That first hurdle of orders that we had, [00:17:00] I was able to fulfill them in two weeks, which I still think is insane.
And that was because I was good with customer experiences. I messaged all of them and said, "Hey, you're gonna get a free product," right? "I know you came here because of Beyoncé. As you can imagine, we are swamped." [Everett: Yeah.] "Give me two weeks. You're gonna get your product. Just hold on."
EVERETT: So you're real with them.
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: It's customer accountability —
EZINNE: And —
EVERETT: — which you knew already across the past.
EZINNE: You know, from my past. Yeah. And they were all so kind. I think we only had maybe one — hundreds of orders, only one person [Everett: Yeah.] complained, and we made two weeks. And I'm someone who believes I deserve help, so I've never been shy to ask for help.
[Everett: Sure.] I will ask. I tell people who offer me help, be careful, 'cause I'll come. [Everett: Yeah.] I'm gonna cash it out. So I asked everybody for help, my sister for help, my partner for help, my mom flew in. I'm like, "I need all hands on deck" [Everett: Yeah.] "because this dream is bigger than me, so let's go." And they all came, and they all helped.
And I remember my little Mercedes at the point being filled to the brim, and I was going to the post office back and forth just [00:18:00] shipping orders, shipping orders. At that point in 2020, I was able to make my first hire because of all this revenue. I hired my now husband. I said, "Hey, quit your job, please."
EVERETT: Need you.
EZINNE: I need you. I might not be able to pay you as much as you're making, but the benefits —
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: — you wanna work remote. This is, you know, the offer I offer. I made him... I don't believe in free work.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: I think free work is not good work. [Everett: Yeah.] So if I can help it, I don't like people working for me for free, regardless of who you are.
My best friends will tell you I pay all of them. [Everett: Yeah.] I believe in partnerships and collaborations, but not free work. So yeah, I made him an offer, and he said yes, and that was how we launched the business, and he came on as a co-founder.
EVERETT: Got it. So I mean, you did have the Fortune 500 job. You did have, you know, what I'll call that level of experience, but what's the things that you kinda wish you knew, either in the beginning or when the post hit, for lack of a better term, with the explosion of sales?
EZINNE: What I'm learning now: there's a level of selfishness you have to have when you're building [00:19:00] something, and I think women are taught to be less selfish. We're taught to be community givers, and which you can, but there should be a balance. I'm a first daughter. I'm a community giver in every single way.
[Everett: Sure.] But you have to know that you have to put your mask on first —
EVERETT: Gotcha.
EZINNE: — before you start helping everybody. I remember as a founder, my first year in, I'm taking calls helping people who are asking me, "How did you do this?" X, Y, Z. I had just started. I should have never been doing that. [Everett: Yeah.] I should have spent that time —
EVERETT: Doing other things.
EZINNE: — doing other things. Okay. And I'm just giving so much because I think —
EVERETT: Hmm.
EZINNE: I am God —
EVERETT: Hmm.
EZINNE: — and I need to... If I don't help you, you're not going to find help, when in reality I had no business trying to do so much, and that's one thing I would redo if I could. I'd be more selfish. I think some of the most successful businesses, there's a level of selfishness that they carry, and I think that everyone should.
Until you can stand ten toes on your own, be a little selfish.
EVERETT: So you talked about Grid110. [Ezinne: Mm.] Let's first define what it is. [Ezinne: Mm.] And then tell me [00:20:00] what it did for you as a founder.
EZINNE: So Grid110 is a nonprofit incubator. We've been running in LA for over ten years now. I believe we're one of the longest.
And what we do is we create equity entrepreneurship in three ways: community, capacity, and capital. So capacity, meaning the programs that we have. We usually have two to three programs a year. Community, our ecosystem, our founders. We support six hundred businesses. [Everett: Nice.] Eighty percent of them are still...
I like this number. Eighty percent of them have their businesses run past five years, so they are, you know, engaging. And then capital, we've done about three million dollars in non-dilutive grants that we've disbursed. Our founders have gone on to raise about a hundred and forty million.
People think we're tech-based, but we're really industry agnostic, so you have everything from CPG, fintech, e-commerce and beyond, and AI and innovation in the car space, rideshare. So we do it all. [Everett: Yeah.]
EVERETT: Nice. So what did it do for you? Obviously it was there before.
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: You're there [00:21:00] now, and we'll get to that in a second.
But why did you go, and what did it do for you?
EZINNE: I went because I thought I wasn't a businesswoman, and I needed some type of... I didn't have time to get an MBA, so I was like, "Okay, I need to get the tools to become a businesswoman."
EVERETT: Okay.
EZINNE: So what it did — one, it validated me, validated my idea. It also gave me an active ecosystem.
EVERETT: Okay.
EZINNE: [Everett: Right.] The ecosystem was active, and people were opening my emails. And lastly, it also gave me knowledge. I didn't even know anything about grants.
[Everett: Mm.]
I'd won my first grant when I was in the program at Grid110.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: And then when I did the first time, it was like a...
Sorry, I don't know if I can say this or I have to edit this out, like a hit of drug. It was like, oh, it's like crack. I'm like, oh my gosh. Wait. I go for it. I'm like, oh my gosh, free money. Who knew that you could get free money? And I became such a refined storyteller from pitching and then refining my pitch.
Grid110 did that for me, and by the time I left, I [00:22:00] did three programs in Grid. By the third one, they were like, "Okay, girl, I don't know what else you can do here, but you've done it all." I took such great advantage of it.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: And that's what it did for me.
EVERETT: We'll take a break, and we'll hear from [unclear], our customer.
Diana: I'm Diana Davis. My company is Diana Davis Creative and Recess for Creatives, and I'm from Colorado. I'm a former photographer and graphic designer turned business coach for creative entrepreneurs. The problem I was facing before I worked with Lendistry was mainly capital. So many creatives, we call them solopreneurs, when we kind of are the one-woman show, we need money, and a lot of places won't lend money, so we end up using credit lines with a lot of interest.
That kind of stacks up. Since I've been working with Lendistry, the biggest result I've seen is just relief. Having the space to create again, not being stressed out from [00:23:00] the interest of money, being able to consolidate that, as well as being able to tell all of my creative clients about it because it's something we all deal with.
I highly recommend Lendistry to all of my clients who are small business owners and any other small business owners out there. They're an amazing company who really focuses on women, people of color, a lot of us who don't really get the shots other people do, and it was just a completely different experience.
Where finances, especially for a creative who doesn't run numbers every day, is very intimidating, they made it really easy.
EVERETT: So Ezinne, welcome back.
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: You are now running Grid110.
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: So let's first close off the last business. Tell us what happened, and then tell us how you end up taking the lead of 110.
EZINNE: 2023 was a hard year. That was the first year since the launch that we didn't [00:24:00] make a profit.
EVERETT: Mm.
EZINNE: And I had eight people on payroll.
EVERETT: Mm-hmm.
EZINNE: Uh —
EVERETT: Sleepless nights.
EZINNE: You know, sleepless nights. Retail partnerships, they were not paying. They would net two hundred.
EVERETT: Wow. Right. So — and for our audience, that means how long it took them to pay.
EZINNE: Yeah.
EVERETT: Net two hundred days before they would pay.
EZINNE: Before they would pay.
EVERETT: The bills, so the company —
EZINNE: An industry standard should be ninety days, so a lot of payments were not coming through, and our cash flow in a consumer product goods business, which we say CPG, cash flow is every day.
[Everett: Yeah.] So cash flow was not flowing, and it was really hard. And I remember going to fundraise. At this point, I had done over half a million dollars in grants. We had expanded to Dubai. We had traction, but fundraising was traumatic.
EVERETT: Mm-hmm.
EZINNE: And I really started mapping out what is my strategy to exit from SKNMUSE so I can be a bridge for founders like myself.
When I started thinking about that, [00:25:00] another company approached me, similar to Grid110, and said, "Hey, we would love for you to come on as the director of partnerships." I was like, "Sure." I was like, "All right, cool." I'm doing this in 2024 while, you know, I become the chief strategist of SKNMUSE. I stepped down a little bit.
The team is strong enough for me not to be there for day-to-day. And then as I'm there, I'm like, "Okay, how do I..." I'm learning at this company what it means to use my ecosystem to generate funds.
EVERETT: Sure.
EZINNE: I was able to generate a million dollars in social impact budget for them. And then this position at Grid110 opened up.
I applied for it, and I put my best foot forward. It was a unanimous vote from my board, and I'm very proud of that. Every single one of them wanted and signed off on me, and then I exited. At that point, I had to make a decision. Do I want to sell SKNMUSE?
EVERETT: Uh-huh.
EZINNE: Do I want to just exit from SKNMUSE? What do I want to do with SKNMUSE?
[00:26:00] [Everett: Sure.] I had the meeting with my team, and we decided — there was a buyer at the time. He's like, "Okay, I..." He wanted to buy it all, but we had to stay and work for him. [Everett: Yeah.] I didn't want to do that. So I just simply said, "We're going to close down. We can sell the formulation, but we cannot sell the name." However, then I had a good bridge to transition to something exciting.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: So the space of grief and relief is where I was, you know, grieving what could have been —
EVERETT: Sure.
EZINNE: — if I stayed, but also relief of, oh, wow, my next cycle, I get to do [Everett: Yeah.] what I'm doing now. So it was an easy transition for me.
EVERETT: You know, this concept of what I would call failing forward, I find it's in multiple entrepreneurs, by the way.
It's the entrepreneur who says, "Look, I'm winding down my business." I find an entrepreneur who sells their business that's just like, "Did I make enough? Did I do right?" Or the entrepreneur that's just trying to, you know, in between, right? They've raised capital. Maybe they raised too much.
[00:27:00] Maybe they raised too little. It's so interesting to see the different dynamics that go on in entrepreneurship. So hats off to you, because then you decided, "I'm gonna take all that." [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] "And then I'm gonna start to teach others."
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: Right?
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: And why did you choose that, just so I'm clear?
EZINNE: I believe it was probably from experience as a founder.
You know, when you first start, everyone's so excited. You're like a newborn baby. You're so shiny. You smell nice. Your cheeks are bouncy. And then by the time you become a three-year-old toddler, you're messy. [Everett: Yeah.] You know, you're five years old. You're running around the place, diapers off, whatever, you know, doing so much.
You're a little less nice to be around, and [Everett: Yeah.] people don't really pay that much attention to you. And as a founder in that space, I want to see people have the tools to grow past the five years. I want to see people by choice, naturally. And I think we can be that bridge. [Everett: Mm.]
EVERETT: So tell us a little about the demographics.
What do you see going through there in terms of who you serve and different things like that?
EZINNE: Not by [00:28:00] design, but by coincidence, 80% of our entrepreneurs are underrepresented. They're POC, 70% are women. [Everett: Mm.] That's what we see. We also see people who... People think entrepreneurs are so young, but we see them in the middle ages as well.
[Everett: Interesting.] Mm-hmm. And also we see a little bit from the LGBTQ+ community. People call it underrepresented. I like to say innovative. I think the most innovative ideas come from communities that are not being served first.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: Yeah. Like —
EVERETT: And obviously, I mean, let's keep — [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] You can speak to that, right?
EZINNE: Yes. Oh, yeah.
EVERETT: You can speak to —
EZINNE: Yeah.
EVERETT: — whether they be from a different country. [Ezinne: Yeah.] You can speak to obviously being a woman. [Ezinne: Yeah.] You can obviously speak to being a person of color [Ezinne: Yeah.] — Black woman founder. [Ezinne: Yeah.] So when you think about that, I mean, I guess, two questions. Are you seeing similar things to what you saw in 2019 for yourself?
And do you see kind of reoccurring issues?
EZINNE: It's even worse now.
EVERETT: Okay.
EZINNE: It's worse now because we had this boom [00:29:00] in that 2020 to 2022 where everybody just writing checks. Everybody was writing a check. They're writing a check. And because they were so eager to write checks, they were so hungry for returns in a way that wasn't fair to the people that were getting the checks, right?
[Everett: Yeah.] You cannot have inclusivity without having the tools in place to sustain it.
EVERETT: Sure.
EZINNE: And what we saw was this participation badge of inclusion happening at a rapid pace without the tools to sustain it. So now it's worse because you've gone from painting this picture where everybody is welcome at the table and you can eat from the table, to now you're not asking them, "But where's the buffet?
I let you — I gave you a seat and you want a buffet now? I just got here." [Everett: Yeah.] "What do you mean?" You see people come and maybe because one Black or brown founder hasn't done the best in the way that the firm expects you to [Everett: Mm.] they believe every other [00:30:00] Black or brown founder [Everett: Yeah.] is not equipped to do the work.
[Everett: Yeah.] When in reality, founders come in different shades.
EVERETT: Of course. It's just a numbers game, though.
EZINNE: It's a numbers game. It has nothing to do with race. So because you think you've given me fraction of your fund compared to what you've been doing in the past — for instance, AI funding, you know, it's so much booming, but only 50, 80% of that is going to only four companies, I believe, or something like that.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: Because you've given me a fraction, not even a full pie. You gave me two bites.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: You think that now I should be indebted to you and move at the speed of Amazon?
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: It's ridiculous. It's not sustainable. So now you have founders who have been giving all of this fraction, but they expect you to give them your firstborn child, a DNA sample and all, et cetera, when that's not what VC was supposed to do for you in the first place.
[Everett: Sure.] They are supposed to accelerate. They're supposed to give you the funding. But just like Uber, [00:31:00] Netflix, Glossier —
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: — it takes time.
EVERETT: That's exactly right.
EZINNE: So now it's — I think Black founders are getting — I don't think, I know — less than 1%. Women, Black women are getting less than 1% of entire funding. The numbers are jarring.
We've told people that you can come in, you can pitch. If you have traction, you can get the funding. When in reality, no one is writing checks. So we are now in this ecosystem where we saw a boom of entrepreneurship happen —
EVERETT: Right.
EZINNE: — and there's no sustainable pathway, because you can only do grants for so long.
EVERETT: True.
EZINNE: You know, let's be real, 5,000, 20,000. I wish I could do grants of 50,000, but in this ecosystem like LA, New York, Chicago, a 5K is not gonna go far in grants. How much pitching can one do when you should be building your business? [Everett: Sure.] So that's where we are now. I think it's actually way worse. I hate that I do this, but sometimes I tell founders, "Think really hard before you fundraise [00:32:00] from VC."
EVERETT: Mm.
EZINNE: Think really, really hard. Think really hard. 'Cause if you don't need to, don't do it.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: Don't do it.
EVERETT: Interesting. So let's go the other way. What are you telling them? I mean, are you saying, "Look, hang in there until you get the Beyoncé post"? Like, what are you saying to help them? [Ezinne: Mm.] 'Cause you are the ambassador of courage too, in some way, shape, or form, right?
EZINNE: Big title. F —
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: — whatever. I'm telling them to explore all options.
EVERETT: Okay.
EZINNE: I'm telling them [Everett: Wide.] to go wide. I'm telling them to also, one, validate, validate, validate, validate, validate. My demographic of founders that we serve do not have the privilege of some founders that you might find in Silicon Valley.
So explore options. [Everett: True.] The first step is to validate yourself, validate your business. Do not go into a VC meeting [Everett: True.] without being the expert. And I mean not just expert on your company, expert on your industry, expert on your numbers, expert on growth, [00:33:00] everything. You want to be able to be the most knowledgeable person in the room because then you can make the best deal.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: I'm not giving you a dollar if you don't believe in what you're building, and that's just the truth. [Everett: Yeah.] There's a business called CurlMix. Kim Lewis is the founder, and she raised for her pre-seed about over a million dollars from her customers. As you can imagine, those customers are now investors.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: They're going to stick by you and want to see you succeed, because they didn't invest in a new company. They're now your customers and your investors. So think about before you choose a lane. VC is good for some, VC is not good for some. [Everett: Right.] Don't do it because your friend is doing or your competitor is doing it.
Sit back, analyze your business, understand, okay, what is my exit strategy? How do I want to exit? How do I want to grow? Do I need this influx of cash right now, or do I need this at my phase — seed, first round of raising, seed one? Do I need it? [00:34:00] If I need it now, who do I really need it from?
[Everett: Yeah.] You know? I think going into VC is a marriage that has to end in divorce because you have to... That's just what it is.
EVERETT: You have to sell the company. You have to sell the company, yeah.
EZINNE: You gotta do something. You know? So really, really think if that's the type of marriage you wanna be in, and then that way when you go into it, you go into it, you know, loaded up with everything that you need to give you your most favorable outcome.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: But if you know that that's not it, there are other ways, and customer acquisition, retention, revenue building is not lost. It is hard —
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: — but every other lane is hard.
EVERETT: I'm gonna guess at what I think the steps are, and then — 'cause it's been a while for me, and this does change kind of year to year.
So is it still friends or family? [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] Which I would just call angels. [Ezinne: Yeah.] Your own money. [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] Minimum viable product, whatever that means. An actual product. Close your first real [00:35:00] customer [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] and then raise capital. Is that —
EZINNE: That's what I —
EVERETT: — the general blueprint?
EZINNE: That's what I would say. And not every industry has the, you know — I would like to use product-based industry as an example.
[Everett: Yeah.] Friends and family, and some people think — some people don't have the [Everett: Friend or fam.] friends and family. This is where you really then have to start thinking about, okay, do I raise money via partnerships?
EVERETT: Mm-hmm.
EZINNE: I think partnerships is a [unclear] tool.
EVERETT: Yeah. I think partnerships, I mean, crowdfunding, as you already mentioned [Ezinne: Mm.] — these are really powerful that [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] I didn't have, but [Ezinne: Yeah.] you know, I wish I did.
EZINNE: Yeah. And you literally can put a good proposal together. People think that if you're coming to a company or a brand like — we keep saying Amazon, I'll use something else. Maybe a Netflix, you have —
EVERETT: I love Amazon.
EZINNE: They're a good partner, so it's fine. You're coming to Amazon, and you're a small business, you think you have nothing to offer, but you have everything to offer.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: You are [00:36:00] on the grassroots.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: I remember talking to my first advisor, asking her to come on. I couldn't give her what she would probably get out of the company.
She was a CMO of Glossier.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: In my proposal, I put babysitting as an offer. She had just moved to LA. I knew she knew no one, no one. She had two kids.
EVERETT: That's creative.
EZINNE: You know, I think outside the box. I'm not saying you should go to Amazon, do that [Everett: Yeah.] — please do not do that. But I'm saying that there's always something that you can offer that they might not be able to get somewhere, and do the research too.
And sometimes when you come to that proposal for that partnership, charge your worth. This is not the time to be meek. 'Cause if you come to me and tell me that you want to change the world, and you're asking me for $5,000, I'm not gonna take you seriously.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: Because I know $5,000 is not gonna change the world.
EVERETT: Yeah. Well, I mean, equally as important [Ezinne: Mm.] — it says that your goals are small. [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] Right? So [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] now you get into the investor wondering, "Is this worth my time? Do they realize they're gonna come back to me a month later, a [00:37:00] week later, a year later?" You know. And it's hard. I imagine as an investor, it's hard to figure out the seriousness of the person too.
EZINNE: Yeah.
EVERETT: Then [unclear], also, why can't you get your own 5,000 through Uber driving [Ezinne: Yes.] or Lyft [Ezinne: Another way.] or some other job, right?
EZINNE: Yes. And lastly, you know, like I did, keep the job as long as you can.
EVERETT: I agree with that.
EZINNE: If you wanna quit your job, think about it. If I quit this job, will I start making decisions out of desperation [Everett: Mm-hmm.] or clarity of mind? [Everett: Mm.] If you do not have the resources to build well without a job, keep the nine to five until you can.
EVERETT: Yeah. So, I mean, we're talking about this a little bit, but I wanna make sure I ask you the direct question in case you have a different answer. What are the big mistakes you're seeing entrepreneurs make?
EZINNE: Not being open to pivot.
EVERETT: Mm.
EZINNE: Sometimes, especially when it's your first company, you're so married to the idea and what you think it should look like, when it can be anything, right? [00:38:00] Move quick. When you know it's not working, move quick.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: So move quick into what works. Shifts.
[Everett: Yeah.] Shift. Experiment is the first one. Experiment.
EVERETT: I think that's one of the most powerful things you said, and I'm gonna just repeat it. And at two things. One, when you said the customer told me that they really like vanilla. [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] Right? [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] So two things there. One, I find a lot of times we'll ask a very simple question in lending, and we don't talk to everybody.
Some people just do the 100% tech thing, then they just go right through our process. But when we do get a chance to talk to them, either in a loan application process, on stage, or whatever, it's just a simple question like, "What did the customer say?" And I get this deer in headlights, and I'm like, "Uh-oh, you're in trouble."
[Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] "Because you have this great idea [Ezinne: Mm.] but you haven't got any market intel. You don't know what the customer wants, and you have no idea if you're gonna have revenue."
EZINNE: Yes.
EVERETT: Right? [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] And then I think the second thing you said — so one is a customer focus group, and then to your point, the second one [00:39:00] that's so interesting to me is just being willing to adjust.
It's like I see entrepreneurs get really stuck on "this is what the market needs." And I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that if we —
EZINNE: There must be a different way to —
EVERETT: Right. And if we [Ezinne: Yeah.] — if we use Amazon as analogy, it was the customer that wrote him the letter about the windshield wiper blades —
EZINNE: Mm.
EVERETT: — which led him to go beyond books.
EZINNE: Yeah.
EVERETT: Right? He put the word out. He put the survey out. They started coming back, and he's like, "I can sell windshield wiper blades." You know what I mean? You need that intel for pricing. You need it for marketing. So I'm totally with you.
EZINNE: Um —
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: And I don't know what it is about people being afraid.
Either the fear of talking to customers or you're not making time to talk to customers. [Everett: Yeah.] When I was an entrepreneur — like, I feel like I still am in that kind of —
EVERETT: You are. You're an extension.
EZINNE: You know, extension. I would do focus groups every quarter.
EVERETT: Interesting.
EZINNE: At the very least twice a year. When you know that the people you're selling to, you are building for them, you're [00:40:00] creating for them, everything is leading to them.
Not — yes, we want to talk to the investors, but the customer [Everett: Yeah.] — when you have this validation that you are building for them because of the feedback they're giving you, the road to failure is less traveled because they've told you what they want. You listen to them, and you're going on that route.
Even down to — we would talk about pricing. We would talk about words. Do you relate with this word? Do you not relate with this word? Bundle packaging, colors. Talk to the customer, and customers wanna be spoken to.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: If the customer loves your product, they will give you that time.
EVERETT: Absolutely.
EZINNE: Offer them something, 'cause again, I don't believe in free work, but we do have in-person, online. Before we wanted to expand into the transgender community, we didn't just assume because we had a partnership with a nonprofit. We had interviews [Everett: Yep.] with trans women, and that was how I knew — we were talking to them about a different product.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: Speaking to them, I [00:41:00] learned that the body butter is actually really good for stubbles on the skin.
EVERETT: Mm.
EZINNE: I did not know that.
EVERETT: Interesting.
EZINNE: But I learned that from speaking to them, and I was like, "Whoa, there's a whole 'nother benefit going on here that I never realized from our MVP product" [Everett: Sure.] — even though we wanted to launch something for them, so we pivoted.
So talk to the customer. Do not be afraid, and be okay with feedback. Some people hear one negative feedback and they think, "Oh." That's one feedback.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: Talk to as many customers in different ways. [Everett: Yeah.] Make it fun. Make it... That's part of your job. When you have the backing of a strong customer base — I like to say build a cult following with your customers.
When you have that, even if you decide to close down your business, you open another one, they will travel to you. [Everett: Yeah.] They will shift and go into that new industry that you're going to, because they've built that relationship. They know that you listen, you validate, you create for them. So why not?
You've already built the trust. I'll still buy from you. Yeah.
EVERETT: Help me to understand. I mean, I'm a data [00:42:00] junkie. I'm a math guy. [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] I would call our data third-party data, right? Where we see, you know, how the customer pays back. We see credit reports and all this other stuff, third-party data.
I tend to think of you as first-party data. [Ezinne: Mm-hmm.] You get to meet the entrepreneur, you get to touch them, you get to kinda see how they interact. What are the traits you look for that says, "She's gonna make it. He's gonna make it"? What do you see in that first-party data that, you know, I might not see?
EZINNE: Mm-hmm. I see consistency. [Everett: Interesting.] There's something about someone who's consistent, and consistency can come in different ways. [Everett: Sure.] There's a business called FunDiggity Funnel Cakes that's booming right now. [Everett: FunDiggity?] FunDiggity Funnel Cakes is a Grid110 company. [Everett: Okay.] She went to the program in 2020 as well, and she was making funnel cakes from her house.
[Everett: Mm.] This woman has been one of the most consistent people I've seen in making sure... Now, funnel cakes is something she always has, but now she [00:43:00] has a formula that's on shelves. She was featured by Uber. She just won, I think, a competition for 60 Day Hustle. She has always been consistent, and because of her consistency, I believe she's currently in the type of acceleration that she's experiencing now.
So consistency is one of the things I look for. Secondly, I look for: do you know what you are building? I'll give an example, the AI space.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: Everybody right now, it's like a trend. When I talk to certain founders in the AI space, I get confused. I'm like, "What exactly are you building? Is it a trend or will this sustain you past five years?"
And when I say "do you know," outside of your elevator pitch, if I start asking you your customer, your why, you know, what are the growth levers? If you don't know these little things, I can't take you seriously. [Everett: Yeah.] [00:44:00] And I can't take you seriously only because in the position I am today, my tolerance window for time-wasting initiatives is very small.
So I have to [Everett: Yeah.] — we have to move on because for every ask that comes to our plate, there's 100 more.
EVERETT: Totally get it.
EZINNE: So we have to move. So consistency and knowledge, because you should be the more knowledgeable person about what you're building than I should.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: Teach me.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: Impact in me, give me data, and if you can't give me that, then I get very nervous.
You know, maybe you should [unclear]. I get nervous about investing time into you. [Everett: Yeah.] Mm-hmm.
EVERETT: That's interesting. I guess when entrepreneurs kind of come to you, they say, "Hey, this is what my secret sauce," or, "This is what I do," or, "This is just who I am." Where do you find, like, hey, you're good at this, but you need to learn this?
EZINNE: I think every founder, if you can, should get a business coach. I have a business coach. [Everett: Me too.] You know, I think it helps you zoom out.
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: 'Cause sometimes you're so stuck in the [00:45:00] process, you're so in the weeds that you're unable to see that there's a box of fertilizer sitting a mile away [Everett: Right.] — you know, to help you.
So those people that you trust — I like to say, also have a council of advisors. [Everett: Yeah.] And they might not be officially titled, but people that [Everett: Yeah.] — you know, it could be a friend, it could be a mentor, it could be someone who you grew up with that you just admire their traction or their track record.
Have a council of people that you trust. Not too many, though, 'cause everybody always has advice for entrepreneurs.
EVERETT: Too much advice.
EZINNE: Too much advice is too mu — you know?
EVERETT: Yeah.
EZINNE: But go to them also. Take the feedback I might give you and present it to them. [Everett: Yeah.] So that's how I like to, you know, give it: how do we take you from here to there, and how do we help?
'Cause if you don't believe in the feedback, you're not gonna do it. [Everett: Yeah.] And just know — I try not to give, and I'm almost there — I try not to give more than three pieces of feedback.
EVERETT: Hmm.
EZINNE: I think when you do too much feedback to founders, it can get cluttered.
EVERETT: [00:46:00] Yes.
EZINNE: And it also minimizes what I'm saying.
So I try to keep it to three strategic, you know, roadmaps for them.
EVERETT: Yeah. Sure.
EZINNE: So.
EVERETT: I think we'll end there. So such a pleasure to have you on the show today. [Ezinne: You too.] And looking forward to continuing the conversation and [Ezinne: Yeah.] helping some of these businesses at Grid110. Thank you.
EZINNE: Yeah. Thank you so much.
EVERETT: Thanks for hanging out with us on Small Business Unscripted. Want more? Head to smallbusinessunscripted.com for episodes, helpful resources, and to keep the conversation going. See you next time.